An interview with Phil Dirt, King of Surf Radio - by Robert Ruggeri
I first met Phil back in 1999 when I was touring US with “i Cosmonauti”.
He was one of the guys who helped us booking all the gigs we had.
He is a nice & mellow man with a sharp knowledge in music & he put all his efforts to make that night THE night. Thanks to him we have been include the “live” bonus tracks in the last Cosmonauti cd “Bikini Angel”. Here is a interesting profile of the man behind his “Surf’s Up!” show. If you don’t know him, you better check him at Reverb Central http://www.reverbcentral.com or every saturday 7-9 PM at http://www.kfjc.org
R.R.- where & when were you born?
P.D.- I was born in San Francisco in 1947, but was clever enough to move to
Palo Alto by age 6 months.
R.R.- what kind of studies?
P.D.- I was a broadcast major with a minor in reverb.
R.R.- how did you get into the music?
P.D.- by the music you mean instrumental surf? From a very young age, I was
drawn to radio by both the magic of radio and the new sounds on rock
'n' roll radio. I was already drawn to instros via Link Wray, Johnny
and the Hurricanes, Duane Eddy, the Viscounts, and other guitar
oriented bands. The sound of records was much more interesting than
lyrical content. My radio interest had also led me to dial-wandering at
night, and eventually dxing with a couple of freinds in school. I was
already listening to Chicago, New York, LA, Lethbridge (Canada), and
Mexican radio at night, and Stockton radio by day before surf hit. I
was a regular listener to KRLA and KFWB in LA, so when Dick Dale and
the Belairs hit the air, I was hooked.
R.R.- what kind of music you used to listen before you started as a DJ?
P.D.- being a DJ has not changed what I listen to, other than getting further
into the vaults. I like all sorts of things. I did some DJ work at KFJC
in '64-67, and at that time I was into British R&B (Stones, Pretty
Things, Yardbirds, Graham Bond Organization, Them, etc.), American
Garage (Chocolate Watchband, Tears, Golliwogs, Music Machine, etc.),
surf and others, but had a broad appreciation for early rock and R&B,
being particularly drawn to the Legrande label (US Bonds, Church Street
Five) and Chess/Checker (Bo Diddley) among others. If it rocked and
wasn't really just pop, I liked it.
R.R.- when did you start working as DJ regularly and when you started to play only
instro?
P.D.- that would be about 1980 or so. Aside from a short revolutionary blast
at KFJC around '65-66, I was only a listener.
well, I never played only instro. My show now is one hour of a mixture
of garage and many other genres, and two hours of instro surf. I
started rotating surf heavily in 1983, but had used surf as part of my
show as far back as 1965.
R.R.- who was/were your favorite DJs?
P.D.- good question. I loved listening to Tom Donahue, Bob Mitchell, Peter
Trip, and Norman Davis on KYA, Sqweeky Martin on KLIV, William F.
Williams on KAFY (? or maybe KMEN), Reb Foster on KRLA, Gary Owens,
Buck Herring and Johnny G on KEWB, Sly Stone on KSAN-AM, George Oxford
and Rosco on KDIA, Bobby Dale and Gene Weed on KFWB, Wolfman Jack on
XERB and XERF, Dick Biondi on WLS... it's hard to get down to one.
R.R.- which radios stations you used to listen to?
P.D.- in order of time volume, KLIV 1590 San Jose, KEWB 910 Oakland, KYA 1260
San Francisco, KSAN-AM 1450 San Francisco, KDIA 1310 Oakland, KSTN 1420
Stockton, KDON 1460 Salinas, KJOY 1220 Stockton, KRLA 1110 Pasadena,
KFWB 980 Los Angeles, KHJ 930 Los Angeles, XERB 1090 Tijuana, CJOC 1220
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada, WLS 891 Chicago, KAFY 550 Bakersfield,
KMEN 1290 San Bernardino, and others sporatically.
R.R.- what kind of music was on-air at that time?
P.D.- many kinds, some I liked, some I didn't. Radio was top 40 mostly, which
meant putting up with lots of pop nonsense to get a couple of great
tunes. Some stations were better than others. The mix in the
early-to-mid sixties was surf, British Invasion, Motown, R&B, American
Garage, Garage Psych (before the San Francisco scene), and more.
R.R.- what was the reaction of the people all over USA to the instro music?
P.D.- I can't speak for the USA's millions of diverse people, only for myself
and by way of observation, the kids I hung around with.
I was the only one I knew that was. Others, much like today,
just liked what the radio played and like songs about their lives or
what they wished their lives were like. Surf kicked butt in some
markets (LA mostly), not in most. Garage was another story. It was
huge. The best part was that the major labels never figured out how to
fabricate it like they have with every other genre, so it remained
mostly pure and vital.
R.R.- why you went for instro instead of any other music?
P.D.- the attraction was the sound. It's always been the sound for me. I
seldom know what song lyrics are about. The sound of the voice is more
important than the content. I wasn't into instro instead of anything
else, just in addition to other things. I have more music from American
Garage bands than anything else, and a few prog bands and punk bands
and R&B artists as well. Everything Hawkwind ever did, or any of their
spinoffs. Kraan, Amon Duul II, Epitaph, the Pink Fairies, Motorhead,
Cannonball Adderley, MJQ, the Chocolate Watchband, the Standells, Merle
Haggard, the Sex Pistols, Blue Cheer, the Oxford Circle, the Other
Half, the Music Machine, the Golliwogs, the Tears, Stained Glass, the
Syndicate of Sound, Silver Apples, Cabaret Voltaire, the Jigsaw Seen,
Dick Hyman, and so on. No real genre limits.
R.R.- lots of music from europe. What was the difference between american &
Europen bands for you at that time?
P.D.- the differences were stark, in my view. The whole way that bands
recorded was different, and the way they looked at music was too. And,
it changed over time. They were almost always much less intense and
gutsy, but often more sophisticated and artistic. Europe had no
equivalent to the Chocolate Watchband, Blue Cheer, the Other Half, etc.
But the US had no real version of prog either. I loved early
Renaissance and Kraan and Amon Duul II. Then again, no one is/way
heavier and more hyptnotic and overpowering than Hawkwind. "Brainstorm"
is simply draining! And High Tide - very dark and angular.
At the beginning of the British Invasion, it was quite a trip to hear
Brits playing American R&B and Blues as if it was rock 'n' roll and
selling it back to the US. I really liked the rougher tougher bands,
Them, the Pretty Things, Bern Elliot and the Fenmen, the Rolling
Stones, and the Animals, as well as the Tornaods and Jet Harris and
Tony Meehan. I wasn't very interested in the pop stuff - the Mersey
sound, the Beatles. As psych crept into US garage, then errupted with
folkrock's children, British Freak Beat became interesting, at least
some artists. By the end of the sixties, American bands were mostly not
very interesting, with the exception of Captain Beefheart and a
handfull of others. I was drawn to some prog and experimental, and
particularly Kraut rock and Hawkwind.
R.R.- what kind of music you used to listen before you started with surf
instro?
P.D.- US Bonds was big for me. The way Frank Guida produced his records
was very special, and the artists were great too. His houseband the
Church Street Five were like a cross between New Orleans jazz and rock
'n' roll, and his big-thump kick drum pumped up the throb and parent
irritation factor. Buddy Holly before he got all sappy. Real R&B
(before Motown - never really like Motown). Bo Diddley, Roger Collins,
the Sevilles. Some doo-wop, a little from the early country rockers
like Johnny Cash and Ronnie Hawkins (his band the Hawks became Crowbar,
and later the Band), some jazz like Hank Jacobs and the Merced
Bluenotes (sorta jazz), and classical too.
R.R.- did the people know at the time that most of the musicians who formed
bands such as beach boys and so did not play any instrument in the
albums but were replaced by session men?
P.D.- In general, no more than they know it today. Some of us were in tune
with that sort of detail, but not many.
R.R.- did any artist, one you thought was a good musician, come in the
studio without knowing what to do, how to play and stuff like that?
P.D.- not surf that I know of, but the business is so strange...
In the early sixties, most large labels were really not signing bands,
they were just buying the name. Bands like the Surfaris would find
themselves replaced by studio guys in the studio, or at best being told
what songs to learn and play. Bands seldon had studio experience, and
didn't have any idea what was going on.
R.R.- - what do you think of the new surf scene?
P.D.- I'm very enthused. Back around 1990, the genre began to
evolve once again. At first, the "new surf" bands like the Mermen,
Pollo Del Mar, and the Ultras met with bitter resistence, even sabotage
in a couple of instances from the trad nazis that wanted the music to
remain their version of a museum piece. Now, there's lots of variety
and some very VERY good players and writers out there. I love what's
happening.
R.R.- do you see any difference in the music played by Europeans and
americans? If so, what is the difference?
P.D.- often yes. Europeans in general come from a Shadows tradition, not a
surf tradition. They also are generally more musically literate - jazz
and classical. They also have their own country's culture overlaid on
their sound. The real thing is a California sound, but not restricted
to California. It's just best understood from the culture that
originated it. These are generalizations of course, and some Eurpopean
bands sounfd like they might as well be from Malibu.
Melody structures and the rhythm sections often differ, with completely
different kinds of melkodies coming from Europe in many cases. Reverb
is another difference. Many non-American bands don't have the sound, or
don't get the inter-relationship between the lead and rhythm guitar.
R.R.- until what year did you play your instro in the radios before the
punk stopped you. I know you stopped as dj as the punk came on, when
was that?
P.D.- actually, punk rock was partly what brought me back to radio and
brought surf back as well. What stopped me from doing radio in the
early days was a falling out with a manager at the radio station that
got me ejected. But, that's another story.
R.R.- do you think that Hendrix saw many times Dck Dale before or when he
had just started, to find out a good sound?
P.D.- never having talked to Jimmi, I don't know the whole story. I know that
he has credited Dick Dale with some inspiration. They both played right
handed guitars left handed and upside down without restringing. Jimi's
poem during Third Stone tells part of the tale. There's an outtake of
that where he says the clssic line "and you'll never hear surf music
again... sounds like a lie to me" then chuckles.
R.R.- what is changed in the radios since those 60s days?
P.D.- dverything and nothing. Here's a link to an article that talks about some of that:
http://www.jive95.com/archivesjive95.htm
From the mid eighties onward, music has continued to fracture to the
point where commercial radio is virtually irrelevent beyond the
Billboard charts. KFJC is so popular because it's what radio should be
in many ways. It's about the music, not playing the hits.
R.R.- do the djs decide what to play or they HAVE to make that particular
album spinning? Not talking only for indie radios
P.D.- commercial radio is tightly formatted. DJ's play what the computer
tells them to when it tells them to do it. No free choices. Some indies
are more free. KFJC is virtually unrestricted, within FCC guidelines
and station policies. We have maybe a hundred-thousand titles in our
library and any specialties like surf on the air. We don't play the
hits by choice. The only hard requirement on DJ's is that 35% of what
they play come from current, a library of a couple of hundred new
additions to KFJC.
R.R.- who was the artist who impressed you the most in your live shows?
P.D.- the Surf Coasters! next would be Slacktone, the Mermen, the Apemen, the
Duo-Tones... too many more and I don't want to leave anyone out.
R.R.- don't you think that the albums with the comin of the cd have lost
that "Pathos" you can feel from a vinyl?
P.D.- no, not at all. I think that's a figment of imagination. Listen to any
of the live CD's I've produced for KFJC. Listen to the Surf Coasters.
What has happened is that a lot of amateurs home record and mix
poorly, then blame digital. It's a skill thing with the recording and
mixdown, not the medium.
R.R.- do you play any instrument?
P.D.- I almost play guitar - just barely - OK not well at all.
R.R.- did you ever try to surf? Real surfing I mean
P.D.- yes, several times. I'm not sports oriented at all, and have no where
near the upper body stregnth required. I used to body surf, skim board,
and skateboard (back when you made your own) as a teenager, but that
was it.
R.R.- would you like to say something more?
P.D.- I want to see three things happen with surf music. I would like to see
more bands 1) put on great entertaining shows like the Surf Coasters,
2) learn how to record really well, so that 3) the music could finally
break into the charts again.
- thanks a lot for your words and...keep spinning your records Phil, SURF’S UP!
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